epitaphic
Aug 18, 09:06 PM
Do you think a Conroe iMac will beat a Mac Pro due to lower memory latency alone? Do you have real experience or data regarding how horrendous a problem this is? Extra dual-core processor aside, the Mac Pro has a higher speed FSB, higher memory bus bandwidth, higher RAM capacity, and ability to set up internal RAID amongst other advantages over a Conroe iMac.
Obviously, inherently the iMac design is inferior to the Mac Pro/Powermac. But I think there's a bigger reason why Apple chose to go all quad with the Mac Pro: Apple chose all quad because a duo option would have had the same performance in professional apps (again, excluding handbrake and toast which are the only two examples touted about). A single processor Woodcrest or Conroe option will have the same obtainable CPU power for 90-95% of the professional market for another 6-12 months at the very least.
Here's some data regarding the Mac Pro's FSB:
the Mac Pro (...) actually takes longer to access main memory than the Core Duo processor in the MacBook Pro. This is much worse than it sounds once you take into account the fact that the MacBook Pro features a 667MHz FSB compared to the 1333MHz FSB (per chip) used in the Mac Pro.
What can we take from this? Because of the use of FB-DIMMs, the Mac Pro's effective FSB is that of ~640MHz DDR2 system.
And how does it fare in memory latency?
It's not Apple's fault, but FB-DIMMs absolutely kill memory latency; even running in quad channel mode, the FB-DIMM equipped Mac Pro takes 45% more time to access memory than our DDR2 equipped test bed at the same memory frequency.
As for bandwidth, although the Mac Pro has a load of theoretical bandwidth, the efficiency is an abysmal 20%. In real use a DDR2 system has 72% more usable bandwidth. (source here (http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2816&p=11))
I don't know bout you, but if I were a heavy user of memory intensive apps such as Photoshop, I'd be worried. Worried in the sense that a Conroe would be noticeably faster.
Memory issues aside, Woodcrests are faster than Conroes, 2.4% on average (source here (http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=2795&p=6))
Obviously, inherently the iMac design is inferior to the Mac Pro/Powermac. But I think there's a bigger reason why Apple chose to go all quad with the Mac Pro: Apple chose all quad because a duo option would have had the same performance in professional apps (again, excluding handbrake and toast which are the only two examples touted about). A single processor Woodcrest or Conroe option will have the same obtainable CPU power for 90-95% of the professional market for another 6-12 months at the very least.
Here's some data regarding the Mac Pro's FSB:
the Mac Pro (...) actually takes longer to access main memory than the Core Duo processor in the MacBook Pro. This is much worse than it sounds once you take into account the fact that the MacBook Pro features a 667MHz FSB compared to the 1333MHz FSB (per chip) used in the Mac Pro.
What can we take from this? Because of the use of FB-DIMMs, the Mac Pro's effective FSB is that of ~640MHz DDR2 system.
And how does it fare in memory latency?
It's not Apple's fault, but FB-DIMMs absolutely kill memory latency; even running in quad channel mode, the FB-DIMM equipped Mac Pro takes 45% more time to access memory than our DDR2 equipped test bed at the same memory frequency.
As for bandwidth, although the Mac Pro has a load of theoretical bandwidth, the efficiency is an abysmal 20%. In real use a DDR2 system has 72% more usable bandwidth. (source here (http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2816&p=11))
I don't know bout you, but if I were a heavy user of memory intensive apps such as Photoshop, I'd be worried. Worried in the sense that a Conroe would be noticeably faster.
Memory issues aside, Woodcrests are faster than Conroes, 2.4% on average (source here (http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=2795&p=6))
Glideslope
Apr 25, 03:50 PM
i would bet anything that these two "customers" happen to also be lawyers.
They just can't earn clean money, always have to rip some one to earn it.
+1 ;)
They just can't earn clean money, always have to rip some one to earn it.
+1 ;)
supremedesigner
Jul 14, 03:39 PM
Make a copy of Toast and use one copy for one drive and the other copy for the other drive.
Ohhhh! That could work. Have anyone tried this before? Thanks! I'll check on it when I get home! :D
Ohhhh! That could work. Have anyone tried this before? Thanks! I'll check on it when I get home! :D
Cougarcat
Mar 26, 02:10 AM
I don't see Apple moving to any version of ReiserFS or ext#, so I think we are stuck with HFS+ and extensions/improvements of it, until the ZFS situation gets clearer.
Apple abandoned ZFS due to licensing and they're working on their own new file system.
Apple abandoned ZFS due to licensing and they're working on their own new file system.
swingerofbirch
Aug 26, 02:06 AM
I imagine Apple is upset with Sony.
I know Sony is paying for the battery replacements but I wonder if they reimburse Apple for the customer service and shipping they provide for the recall.
The market seems to demand low prices and I suppose does not demand as much that the products be durable and right the first time.
With PC manufacturers, they usually have two grades--consumer and business.
My university encourages students to buy a Lenovo notebook, but goes out of their way to emphasize that students buy a business model over the consumer models. They say that they are better built with better parts even if they look less flashy at higher prices.
Apple's product line-up is less stratified. All of their products could theoretically be used by business or consumers. Maybe they are falling in between...not reaching the build level of the PC world's "business class"?
I know Sony is paying for the battery replacements but I wonder if they reimburse Apple for the customer service and shipping they provide for the recall.
The market seems to demand low prices and I suppose does not demand as much that the products be durable and right the first time.
With PC manufacturers, they usually have two grades--consumer and business.
My university encourages students to buy a Lenovo notebook, but goes out of their way to emphasize that students buy a business model over the consumer models. They say that they are better built with better parts even if they look less flashy at higher prices.
Apple's product line-up is less stratified. All of their products could theoretically be used by business or consumers. Maybe they are falling in between...not reaching the build level of the PC world's "business class"?
Eidorian
Jul 15, 05:14 AM
Thanks ksz. I checked it out and the multi burning capability is great. But Dragon Burn will not let you write Images which I find incredibly lame. I use Toast 7 a lot and I use it most of the time to write images not to physically burn discs. I would love to be able to write multiple Images with something. But, alas, Dragon Burn is not it. :(http://www.creativemac.com/2001/04_apr/news/toast53.htm
Still, from what I've read you need multiple instances of Toast open. I'll try Disk Utility for burning two images at once when I get a new image that I need to burn.
Still, from what I've read you need multiple instances of Toast open. I'll try Disk Utility for burning two images at once when I get a new image that I need to burn.
hyperpasta
Aug 5, 05:53 PM
why no mbp? its a pro machine so shouldnt it be updated?
The upcoming MacBook Pro is expected to use a chip known as the Core 2 Duo, versus today's Core Duo. Code-named Merom, this chip will not ship in volume until later this month/early next month. Therefore, IF a Merom laptop is shown, it will not ship for month(s). It is much more likely that we see new Macs using the desktop version of the Core 2 Duo, which is codenamed Conroe and is already being readied to ship as I write this.
The upcoming MacBook Pro is expected to use a chip known as the Core 2 Duo, versus today's Core Duo. Code-named Merom, this chip will not ship in volume until later this month/early next month. Therefore, IF a Merom laptop is shown, it will not ship for month(s). It is much more likely that we see new Macs using the desktop version of the Core 2 Duo, which is codenamed Conroe and is already being readied to ship as I write this.
VanNess
Aug 5, 10:40 PM
Does anyone think the recent "problems" at Apple are going to have any effect on what happens Monday.
Story: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/05/BUGAHKBK3H1.DTL
If there are products that are they "maybe" list, this might put them on the "go" list. Big news pushes stock prices up and pushes the "problem" stories on page 2.
This is steering off-topic, but Rob Enderle is a part-time anti-Apple/pro-Microsoft zealot and a full-time ignoramus who's past record of "analysis" boasts getting it wrong - really wrong - about 99.9% of the time regarding what he has to say about Apple.
So it's no surprise at all that he is virtually a lone voice on this issue pertaining to Jobs, virtually everyone else doesn't see him being implicated in a wrongful way about this.
In any event, it's pure speculation. It's not going to effect the WWDC and the WWDC isn't going to affect SEC matters pertaining to Apple.
Story: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/05/BUGAHKBK3H1.DTL
If there are products that are they "maybe" list, this might put them on the "go" list. Big news pushes stock prices up and pushes the "problem" stories on page 2.
This is steering off-topic, but Rob Enderle is a part-time anti-Apple/pro-Microsoft zealot and a full-time ignoramus who's past record of "analysis" boasts getting it wrong - really wrong - about 99.9% of the time regarding what he has to say about Apple.
So it's no surprise at all that he is virtually a lone voice on this issue pertaining to Jobs, virtually everyone else doesn't see him being implicated in a wrongful way about this.
In any event, it's pure speculation. It's not going to effect the WWDC and the WWDC isn't going to affect SEC matters pertaining to Apple.
iris_failsafe
Nov 28, 06:33 PM
Those idiots never learn...
They will bring their industry to its knees until one day noone will use them...
I don't think Stevo we'll even or should discuss the subject...
They will bring their industry to its knees until one day noone will use them...
I don't think Stevo we'll even or should discuss the subject...
EagerDragon
Aug 27, 11:03 AM
Apple is now getting their parts from the same bin that PC makers use. Intel = cheap parts. Cheap parts = low quality.
Same thing with the batteries....
OS X can run on PPC and X86. Apple should target X86 to consumers and PPC for pro's.
That $100 million that Apple just wasted on Creative could have meant new supercooled mobile G5's if it would have been pumped into IBM (Power.org). Instead we have these halfbaked Wintel parts to deal with MUCH fewer problems with PowerPC based Mac's.
http://www.appledefects.com/?cat=6
http://www.appledefects.com/wiki/index.php?title=MacBook_Pro
If Apple could not get IBM to provide cooler and more powerful chips back then with the full set of customers behind them......... what makes you think that the pro comunity will be able to do so?
I have no idea what the pro vs the rest of us is but I am sure it is less than 100% of all users, as such it is less likely.
IBM has no incentive to produce a cool and fast chip, our pro comunity also wants performance to create all those videos and edit all those photos.
There are a few snags, but they will iron them out. I am glad they did the switch to Intel. Do notice from my signature I do not yet own one, I am waiting for Leopard to take full advantage of the Intel chips. So this time next year I will be looking to get my 1 or 2 additional systems based on SantaRosa and Leopard.
Same thing with the batteries....
OS X can run on PPC and X86. Apple should target X86 to consumers and PPC for pro's.
That $100 million that Apple just wasted on Creative could have meant new supercooled mobile G5's if it would have been pumped into IBM (Power.org). Instead we have these halfbaked Wintel parts to deal with MUCH fewer problems with PowerPC based Mac's.
http://www.appledefects.com/?cat=6
http://www.appledefects.com/wiki/index.php?title=MacBook_Pro
If Apple could not get IBM to provide cooler and more powerful chips back then with the full set of customers behind them......... what makes you think that the pro comunity will be able to do so?
I have no idea what the pro vs the rest of us is but I am sure it is less than 100% of all users, as such it is less likely.
IBM has no incentive to produce a cool and fast chip, our pro comunity also wants performance to create all those videos and edit all those photos.
There are a few snags, but they will iron them out. I am glad they did the switch to Intel. Do notice from my signature I do not yet own one, I am waiting for Leopard to take full advantage of the Intel chips. So this time next year I will be looking to get my 1 or 2 additional systems based on SantaRosa and Leopard.
Consultant
Mar 31, 03:09 PM
So Google is becoming big brother of the open wasteland? :D
CyberPrey
Aug 15, 12:19 PM
Show.. me.. the.. games...
LOL, us gamers all sound kinda like broken records :)
LOL, us gamers all sound kinda like broken records :)
digitalbiker
Aug 25, 07:51 PM
I'm not trying to be a wise a@@, but when did Apple make a Pismo. I do remember them, but not being made by Apple. I am sorry, I don't recall the manufactuer for them at this time.:confused:
Apple always made the Pismo. I don't know the exact years but it was a black G3 PowerBook.
Apple always made the Pismo. I don't know the exact years but it was a black G3 PowerBook.
bad03xtreme
Apr 25, 02:21 PM
More of my tax dollars hard at work. :rolleyes:
cyberdogl2
Aug 27, 05:20 PM
I see where you're coming from.
So does this mean there will be no Powerbook G5s next tuesday?
So does this mean there will be no Powerbook G5s next tuesday?
roland.g
Nov 28, 10:57 PM
Do CD player and tape deck and car stereo companies pay music studios for every piece of their equipment sold? What about computers which can play the CDs and downloaded songs?
Do they pay Apple and Microsoft to subsidize the R&D costs for each generation of the players that they put out and develop each generation of the music software or player software updates? Do they pay Apple to help the cost of running the ITMS when they still take the lion share of the price per song?
W
H
A
T
E
V
E
R
Do they pay Apple and Microsoft to subsidize the R&D costs for each generation of the players that they put out and develop each generation of the music software or player software updates? Do they pay Apple to help the cost of running the ITMS when they still take the lion share of the price per song?
W
H
A
T
E
V
E
R
room271
Mar 22, 01:17 PM
I don't get all the negative ratings/comments.
1. Competition is good (I know this is hardly an original point)
2. The tablets look interesting.
In particular, the stylus input and software for the Blackberry device allowing simple notetaking etc.
Personally, I dislike Apple's walled-garden (even though I appreciate this doesn't bother many people) so this is good news.
1. Competition is good (I know this is hardly an original point)
2. The tablets look interesting.
In particular, the stylus input and software for the Blackberry device allowing simple notetaking etc.
Personally, I dislike Apple's walled-garden (even though I appreciate this doesn't bother many people) so this is good news.
epitaphic
Sep 13, 12:14 PM
I'd be happy to divert a whole core just to frickin WindowServer. :D
going out on a limb here and assuming you have a heavily cluttered desktop
going out on a limb here and assuming you have a heavily cluttered desktop
LanPhantom
Mar 31, 04:03 PM
You could say the same thing about Apple though. The Apple fad will go away and the extremely closed ecosystem which seems to not be really developing much in terms of UI or having an actual roadmap could end iOS.
I don't understand why people can't just see the pros and cons of both and accept both are great platforms. Its always a WAR with Apple fans. Apple against EVERYONE!
I have to disagree with you. The Apple come back isn't a fad. It's a product of good engineering and great marketing. Apple makes good equipment, so does Motorola and the such. However it's the combine EcoSystem that ties it all together. I admit, once you jump in the Apple lake, it make sense to keep swimming in that water since most things don't interoperate very well. So if you buy Apple products and accessories you can bet they will work perfect together.
The arguement that it's a closed system is getting long in the tooth. Toyota is a closed system. What if you want Nissan seats in your Toyota truck, they probably won't fit and if they do, will probably void your warranty. Toyota sells a TON of cars because people like them and they are built great. Same thing can be said about Apple. Yes they are a closed EcoSystem, but it has proved to be a good thing when it comes to the customer experience and revenue for Apple.
What reason can someone give for me to trade that off and go with an "Open" system? I don't need the stuff on my handset that isn't allowed. Yes Free Tethering would be nice, but that wasn't Apples decision, AT&T prevented it. I unlocked my phone so I could get the MIFI app from Cydia and it worked ok but when I tried to VPN into my work it failed. When the next update came out for the iPhone I reverted back to a locked phone and I'm happy. 20.00 down the drain.
The bottom line is, most people want a system that provides them with what they NEED and a lot of what they want. That it is what Apple is trying to do. They do it on multiple fronts, Movies, Music, Apps, and Hardware. It's the combine system that no one can touch, not even come close to. If M$ would just start making their own PC's, buy Dell, HP, Levono, etc and get on board with Hardware and Software combined system, they would go much farther and be more competitive against this comeback from Apple.
So when it comes down to it, all great things exist in a closed system. Cars exist in a closed system, the Roads they drive on are like the Internet. We buy cars because the company who makes them, makes the complete car and stands behind their creation. Not just the Motor, or Seats or Rims and Tires.
-LanPhantom
I don't understand why people can't just see the pros and cons of both and accept both are great platforms. Its always a WAR with Apple fans. Apple against EVERYONE!
I have to disagree with you. The Apple come back isn't a fad. It's a product of good engineering and great marketing. Apple makes good equipment, so does Motorola and the such. However it's the combine EcoSystem that ties it all together. I admit, once you jump in the Apple lake, it make sense to keep swimming in that water since most things don't interoperate very well. So if you buy Apple products and accessories you can bet they will work perfect together.
The arguement that it's a closed system is getting long in the tooth. Toyota is a closed system. What if you want Nissan seats in your Toyota truck, they probably won't fit and if they do, will probably void your warranty. Toyota sells a TON of cars because people like them and they are built great. Same thing can be said about Apple. Yes they are a closed EcoSystem, but it has proved to be a good thing when it comes to the customer experience and revenue for Apple.
What reason can someone give for me to trade that off and go with an "Open" system? I don't need the stuff on my handset that isn't allowed. Yes Free Tethering would be nice, but that wasn't Apples decision, AT&T prevented it. I unlocked my phone so I could get the MIFI app from Cydia and it worked ok but when I tried to VPN into my work it failed. When the next update came out for the iPhone I reverted back to a locked phone and I'm happy. 20.00 down the drain.
The bottom line is, most people want a system that provides them with what they NEED and a lot of what they want. That it is what Apple is trying to do. They do it on multiple fronts, Movies, Music, Apps, and Hardware. It's the combine system that no one can touch, not even come close to. If M$ would just start making their own PC's, buy Dell, HP, Levono, etc and get on board with Hardware and Software combined system, they would go much farther and be more competitive against this comeback from Apple.
So when it comes down to it, all great things exist in a closed system. Cars exist in a closed system, the Roads they drive on are like the Internet. We buy cars because the company who makes them, makes the complete car and stands behind their creation. Not just the Motor, or Seats or Rims and Tires.
-LanPhantom
ArchaicRevival
Apr 25, 03:44 PM
Ha. They got nothing on Apple's lawyers lol
rezenclowd3
Dec 8, 01:37 PM
{Feelings/ Thoughts on Damage}
Coolio, I believe you. I haven't played much single player since the day it was released, actually haven't played much GT5 at all as I have been so very dissapointed... Been playing Nascar online though. I should be very ashamed. However it seems that people online FOR THE MOST PART can handle turning in one direction cleanly....
Anyone notice that the last 1/4" inch of travel using the triggers on the PS3 controller is not used. It ramps to max throttle far before one is there. ALSO in this day and age, one should be able to adjust endpoints and ramping on triggers and sticks. Ugh. I should stop being used to my $500 RC car and helicopter transmitters.:cool:
Coolio, I believe you. I haven't played much single player since the day it was released, actually haven't played much GT5 at all as I have been so very dissapointed... Been playing Nascar online though. I should be very ashamed. However it seems that people online FOR THE MOST PART can handle turning in one direction cleanly....
Anyone notice that the last 1/4" inch of travel using the triggers on the PS3 controller is not used. It ramps to max throttle far before one is there. ALSO in this day and age, one should be able to adjust endpoints and ramping on triggers and sticks. Ugh. I should stop being used to my $500 RC car and helicopter transmitters.:cool:
cjoy
Apr 25, 02:47 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but so what if they can tell what cell phone tower you're by??? Are you really so important/ secrative that someone knowing your location is that big of a deal?
it looks like a different world from today,
but really it's less than 70 years ago that we had the NAZI regime here in germany. it's less than 25 years ago that we had an repressive surveillance society in east germany. if there is no apparent good in tracking personal data, one should object to it.
you shouldn't have to reason against collecting and storing personal data if it isnt a real necessity.
there's enough data stored about you, me and anyone in todays digitalized world as is.
it looks like a different world from today,
but really it's less than 70 years ago that we had the NAZI regime here in germany. it's less than 25 years ago that we had an repressive surveillance society in east germany. if there is no apparent good in tracking personal data, one should object to it.
you shouldn't have to reason against collecting and storing personal data if it isnt a real necessity.
there's enough data stored about you, me and anyone in todays digitalized world as is.
randyharris
Sep 18, 11:59 PM
It would be fantastic for the MacBook to have the Core 2 Duo, (MacBookPro is a given), the fact is, Apple needs to do this update to stay in the same ballpark as the pc notebook makers.
Now if they could just give the MacBook a real graphics card, I'd be a taker.
Randy at MacSeven.com (http://www.MacSeven.com)
Now if they could just give the MacBook a real graphics card, I'd be a taker.
Randy at MacSeven.com (http://www.MacSeven.com)
mwswami
Jul 23, 05:22 PM
At those prices, sign me up for a Quad 2.3!!!! I'll buy that along with a newly designed 23" ACD for $699. :D
A Quad 2.3 for $1999 ... not going to happen.
Even the cheapest configuration of Dell Precision 490 Workstartion (http://catalog.us.dell.com/CS1/cs1page2.aspx?br=6&c=us&cs=04&fm=11456&kc=6W463&l=en&s=bsd) with dual 2.3 Woodcrests comes out to $2348. This includes 1GB RAM, 80GB SATA drive, and 128MB nVidia Quadro NVS 285 2D graphics.
Apple prices are typically a few hundred $ higher. I am guessing it will be more like $2699 with a larger hard drive and better graphics.
A Quad 2.3 for $1999 ... not going to happen.
Even the cheapest configuration of Dell Precision 490 Workstartion (http://catalog.us.dell.com/CS1/cs1page2.aspx?br=6&c=us&cs=04&fm=11456&kc=6W463&l=en&s=bsd) with dual 2.3 Woodcrests comes out to $2348. This includes 1GB RAM, 80GB SATA drive, and 128MB nVidia Quadro NVS 285 2D graphics.
Apple prices are typically a few hundred $ higher. I am guessing it will be more like $2699 with a larger hard drive and better graphics.
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